Western Front Forum
General => International => Topic started by: HeavyMetalMerchant on June 21, 2010, 06:39:57 PM
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Of course it is very obvious the record industry is pretty much dead and dying. Apart from the collectors market CD's being an almost redundant format now. The music industry is very much alive and well though with digital downloads via itunes, bands websites etc (more revenue going direct to bands). Which is great for bands and artists.
Does anyone still think 20+ year old digital format of compact discs are still necessary? Does recorded music still need to have an Australian distributor, a physical format cd, a pressing plant, distribution, warehousing & trucks to take it to a retail store, every step along the chain taking a margin with almost none left for the artist - unlike a paid digital download that can be accessed from anyone in the world with a click of a button?
Many now feel cutting out redundant distributors and going direct to source is the best thing thats happend to accessability of music and the death record companies - does anyone else agree / disagree?
Does anyone still buy CD's from retail and pay retail prices?
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having something tangible to wrap your fingers around, and liner notes to read is still very much important to a lot of people. I download albums, but if i like it i'll get a CD eventually. Means i don't pay for albums i don't like while supporting the artists i do like. Win for the consumer!
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having something tangible to wrap your fingers around, and liner notes to read is still very much important to a lot of people. I download albums, but if i like it i'll get a CD eventually. Means i don't pay for albums i don't like while supporting the artists i do like. Win for the consumer!
this.
Saves wasting money on a dud album, it's a cheap(free) way of discovering new music and if I like it, I will go out and buy the album..(when it's on clearance :p)
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Yes of course there will always be collectors, thats why ther eis still a market for vinyl pressings etc.
My point is if you want to support an artist then more money will go to the artist through a paid download than purchasing from retail outlet due to the expensive distribution chain and overhead (manufacturer cut, record company cut, distributor cut, retail cut etc). A lot of artists are offering booklets for download down now also.
If you really want to support an artist then buy a t-shirt, patch, poster, flag, beanie or concert ticket, or online etc etc, as less than $3 of a store bought CD on a major record label through a bricks and mortar retail outlet generally goes to an artist.
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Not just about supporting the artist. I've enjoyed watching my CD collection grow since I was a youngun and will continue to do so. I suspect most metal heads are the same. Itunes is for the flavour of the day, not classic albums.
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Good on you for being a collector that is awesome you are a true music fan.
But here is my point:
I know true fans will collect. I know what your saying though for general new releases top 40 etc, cds are redundant formats. But the general misconception is when you buy a CD from a store you are supporting the artists - no you are supporting the record companies and distro generally very little goes to the artists a much high % goes to the artist from digital distro.
Buying online - more will go to the artist (plus you will more than likely get a better price). If you buy from a retailer like JB Hi fi for example then a % of your sales you are paying staff wages, annoying junkmail catalogues, rent, staff, management, security gaurd, store fixtures, their stereo that blasts annoying music, etc wtc. if you buy online more will go to the artist due to less overhead and less links in the supply chain.
Some real world stats:
low end royalty deal
Retail Revenue label: Artist
$9.99 $2 $0.30
High end royalty deal
$9.99 $2 $1.00
online physical sale (eg CD Baby)
$9.99 $0.00 $7.50
Can you see my point? Please shop online for physical CDs, anyone who has access to the internet but still buys from places like JB Hi FI when around only 30 cents for every $10 spent goes to the artist - wake the hell up this is a disgrace!
Sure build your CD collection I do that too - but be mindful where you purchase from if you want the artist to benefit as well.
That is one of the reasons i started an online store, which i hope you can support with all your metal might.
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I usually end up buying a shirt, CD, poster or whatever from a band if I really enjoy their music. And I'll usually order it directly from their band webstore. Besides, it's going to cost a fucking bomb and might take alot longer if I go through JB Hi Fi or 78 records.
I think when it comes to music and just general audio stuff, I don't think CDs will get phased out so easily. Some people still collect vinyl amirite? Casettes do, because it's just generally pretty shit quality when it comes down to it.
I think the anticipation, to actually receive a physical copy of the CD so you can unwrap the plastic and look through a physical copy of the booklet and read the lyrics while listening to the music the way it was meant to be listened, is awesome. It's just not the same to look through a digital copy of the booklet and listen to MP3s. I think it's merely for collection's sake as well. You want your kids in the future to look through your CD collection and look at the awesome artwork and chuck on the CDs and get into metal the way you did when you were flipping through your parents' records and tapes.
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yes true but no kids or cash convertors i know give a shit about the VHS movie collection. :'(.. kids in the future will have 5 terabyte ipods on their wrist watch.
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Definitely prefer to buy physical CDs, as per Inge's reasons above. Plus I'm slowly building up my vinyl collection as the packaging looks awesome!
The other reason is audio quality. CD quality > MP3, compressed audio sounds okay through headphones or PC speakers, but not in a good well-rounded audio system in your car\home. I like to turn it up and you can notice a huge difference with the lack of highs and lows in an MP3.
There are some receivers out these days offering "decompression" algorithms, i.e. they beef up the sound of an MP3, but I am dubious as to how they can create extra information in a digital signal that isn't there in the first place?
There's also FLAC (Free Lossless Audio Codec) torrents floating around, but hard to find metal albums in this format with decent seeds. Unless I'm not looking hard enough...
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I'm not sure where you got those figures from. I know distributors that give roughly 40% of sales from a retail store to the bands. Not 3 - 10%. Obviously not as good as the 100% from sales at shows or from Itunes, but it's not as bleak as you're putting it.
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i dont download at all id rather buy the cd... it feels better to have it in your hands... collector or not...
i buy shirts and merch as often as i can (and somtime its pirated/bootleg which pisses me off)... but id rather support the artists/bands/musicians and search out cd - tapes - vinyls ect... fuck downloading it...
:'(.. kids in the future will have 5 terabyte ipods on their wrist watch.
sad but probably fucking true...
i still have my walkman from the early 90's!!!
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I'm not sure where you got those figures from. I know distributors that give roughly 40% of sales from a retail store to the bands. Not 3 - 10%. Obviously not as good as the 100% from sales at shows or from Itunes, but it's not as bleak as you're putting it.
True yes your referring to an indi or no label deal yeah you might get $3 on $10 after gst and distro fee, but its not net (you have to pay for your own pressing / stock etc), you have to deduct production cost out of this 40%.. Yes you are right online digitial sales its pure cashflow 100% - your not paying to press up any product.
I've recorded for both indi and majors and can tell you this is legit for major label. Also are there any distros left who put Cds in stores? I thought MGM and Ingrims went bust or are they still around.
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I'm a notorious downloader, and I am unashamed. I buy CDs from local (Aus) bands, or smaller/more obscure international bands, but that's about it. Every now and then I'll buy a CD just because it's really cheap, or it's the greatest band of all time and I feel silly having a burnt CD.
But yeah, I buy a lot of t-shirts as well, and between that and concert tickets, I don't feel like I'm cheating artists all that much.
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Not at all mate if you buy a shirt or ticket or merch item generally more will go to the artist than a CD thats purchased at retail..
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Seems like propaganda to get people to buy CDs from your store to me.
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If I'm going to download something I'm sure as fuck not gonna pay for it. I try (and fail) to buy new releases on CD, I'm not gonna foe track done their whole back catalogue unless its a band I'm really into. But if they release a new album and I like it generally ill buy it on CD. Buying tracks online/on itunes feels pointless. I'd rather spend the money on tickets and merch.
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Not just about supporting the artist. I've enjoyed watching my CD collection grow since I was a youngun and will continue to do so. I suspect most metal heads are the same. Itunes is for the flavour of the day, not classic albums.
+1
My record collection continues to grow, and will do so well into the future. I've never paid for a download online, and I'm not planning on doing it anything soon. I'd rather support the band by buying their shirts or albums directly through them, or from a smaller distributor.
If I'm going to download something I'm sure as fuck not gonna pay for it.
I get where you're coming from. If I'm paying for something, I want something physical in return for my cash. Vinyl or a well packaged CD preferably.
As for % of sales that go to bands. At IGI, I only take a couple of dollars in profit from each item that I sell, the majority of that goes back to the band or label. It's a crappy way to run a business, but the aim the whole time has been to support bands.
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Seems like propaganda to get people to buy CDs from your store to me.
thats exactly how I felt about his posts from the very beginning... same with the shirt one
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Seems like propaganda to get people to buy CDs from your store to me.
thats exactly how I felt about his posts from the very beginning... same with the shirt one
Sorry if you feel that way but it was not certainly the intention.
Damn right I will plug my own stuff and the local bands I sell. But honestly I will never sell bootleg t shirts and will always pay bands a good margin. Plus you won't find a Watian shirt at Dirt cheap CDs just a shit Marilyn Mason shirt made in Thailand. I am proud of what I do, offer good service, and try to keep costs low keep cost low.
And really does anyone think it is good that Dirt Cheap Cd scumbags are selling bootleg shirts?
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Seems like propaganda to get people to buy CDs from your store to me.
thats exactly how I felt about his posts from the very beginning... same with the shirt one
FAIL...
I think the whole industry is a fucking rip...
low prices high prices its all designed to make money... peolpe just make money off others work even if they have the rights or not...
id shop with who ever gave the musos the best kick backs... hard to find and cheers for doing so mr heavymetalmerchant...
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Thanks mate I really appreciate that - I honestly do!
You can ask all the bands I sell, Dysie anyone I pay them on time and more then you would get would be more than what they would get elsewere from a conventional retail out let.
I spend $1000's importing offical shirts because I believe in doing the right thing, so I really appreciate those who want to give the finger to these other assholes selling fake crap! I will stand up for what is right, and i will plug my stuff because I rely on the support of the metal community the most loyal people out there and like to make them aware of such things.
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Seems like propaganda to get people to buy CDs from your store to me.
thats exactly how I felt about his posts from the very beginning... same with the shirt one
Damn right I will plug my own stuff and the local bands I sell - because I garantee JB's won't - too bust plugging the latest Eminem shite.. But honestly I will never sell bootleg t shirts and will always pay bands more than what they would get at JB Hi Fi plus you won't find a Watian shirt at Dirt cheap CDs just a shit Marilyn Mason shirt made in Thailand. I am proud of what I do and reckon my service is better than any of those stores, because I keep cost low.
For the record JB Hi Fi service is absolute SHIT! 4 checkouts you have to que up because 2 of the staff are fucking around and only 2 blink 182 kids serving you. I got so pissed off at this crap i decided do do something about it I am trying to offer a better alternative with more revenue going to the bands.
And really does anyone think it is good that Dirt Cheap Cd scumbags are selling bootleg shirts?
I didnt mean it in a negative way. Plug your business all you like. Just be careful about saying things and singling out other shops.... slander and all that shit. It can get pretty serious.
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"WF we need a emicon that does a backflip" ^^^
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I hope it does get serious because Dirt Chirt cheap CDs need to stop selling bootlegs, calling someone out for selling bootlegs, is not slander its doing the right thing!
The bands I am dealing with are in agreeance on this.
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I hope it does get serious because Dirt Chirt cheap CDs need to stop selling bootlegs, calling someone out for selling bootlegs, is not slander its doing the right thing!
The bands I am dealing with are in agreeance on this.
I was more talking about JB's... its fine for the general public to complain, but for a direct opposition like you it generally isnt tolerated.
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I can certainly appreciate what your saying there but..
I am a metal merchandise shop, i don't sell new release Cds or DVDs, Video Games generally and i don't sell TVS or hi fi equipment etc or top 40. I don't really know what the competition is there with the retailer you mentioned we don't even sell any of the same things. I ship to Israel, Norway, Germany wherever, virtual staff and don't have a physical retail store I don't see any similarity or competition aspect. I would consider competitors to JB Hi Fi to be Harvey Norman or even Ebay etc not a niche market online seller like myself who sells Behemoth shirts, cannibal corpse patches, Opeth flags and Motorhead fridge magnets or Dimebag Darrel Statues to rock and metal fans..
My comment were coming purly from a 'consumer' aspect, i much prefer to shop online these days, i am over waiting in line at checkouts and haven't bought retail for a long time, prefering online experience out of personal preference..
I really didn't start this post with the intention to plug my shit or knock any competition - just curios to see the buying habits and who still bought CDs and in what formats, why and where from. I reckon online is the winner, due to economic factors I pointed out, and is only going to get bigger but thats for the consumer to decide not me, you don't get ahead by dragging others down thats for sure.
Thanks for your comments though I will be more humble in the future.
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I still buy many cds.
I never download underground DM, BM, etc albums still in print
I like having it physically, the sound is better, and the artist and underground labels are supported. Illegal d/ling is killing stuff, a lot.
I don't have a problem with evolving beyond cds, but whilst it is still a decent way (imo, the best - although vinyl has a certain magic) of listening to and supporting metal, i will keep on keeping on.
Fuck ripping off bands who spend hours and weeks and months writing, practising and recording, many of whom invest their own money into their recordings and releases.
Metal has always been about supporting the underground, and i think this is still a relevant and vital angle, based on where we are currently at.
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Haydz you disappoint me.
This thread is Nazi Germany all over again.
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The threadstarter (whom I know) speaks the truth and is ahead of his time in my opinion.
CD's like any other format, are going to be made redundant at some pooint, and probably sooner than we think!
9% of the population move to internet sales every year and the suggestion is that 30% of the global population will buy online gear regularly within the next 10 years. Thats a HUGE amount of people.
If bands can make more money this way, then those profits go back to tours and more albums, so its a win-win.
Buying in an underground market does not necessarily mean NOT using the internet.
Its new to me, but I intend to look into digital-only release once we have the material to go.
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While Im pretty certain your intentions are good, its still a subtle and very clever method of spamming. But hey, free advertising - nothing wrong with that.
Oh, and you sell CD's... so do JB hifi. It means you are in competition with them, no matter how you look at it.
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I will always buys cds I like the physical product in my hand, the trip down the store, the drive back home cranking it loud, reading the liner notes and the artwork and having it sitting on my shelf on display along with all my other CD's plus it supports the band even if it's financially small. I even still have a lot of my old cassette tapes as well, original and recorded stuff. I don't like the idea that the digital age is now making these things obsolete, in a way I now understand what vinyl collectors feel like and while I never got into old records as it was just before my time, I definitely understand the importance and feeling of having those albums in your collection. Having downloads of mp3 files on a computer to me is completely lifeless and while I do have copies of my albums on my hard drive, they are only copies. I just prefer to have the actual album in my collection.
That being said, what some bands are trying to do like Lamb Of God and the cigarette flash disk boxset is pretty fucking cool but I still prefer the cd package.
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I don't download as mp3 is an inferior product. Therefore if I like the band I by a cd.
I don't have a problem paying for an album in digital format. As long as the cost of the cd pressing is removed from the price & it is @ the same audio quality as their cd or higher.
Whilst video has gone up in quality, ie: dvd to blue ray, audio has dropped in quality from cd to mp3, RIDICULOUS. What makes this even more ridiculous is this. Most albums are recorded @ 24bit or even 32bit & are converted down to 16bit for cd.
So why the hell are the digital versions of these albums @ a LOWER bit rate than cd, when they can actually save time & $ & sell them @ the bit rate that they were recorded @.
Until this is the case I WILL NOT be buying my music digitally.
Also the next album I record I will be getting mastered @ it's FULL bitrate & offering for sale digitally. So if you buy digitally it will be a superior quality to cd.
This in my opinion is the direction that music should be heading. It would make for a good sales pitch for the labels as well.
;)
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Looks like that is already on the cards - from the apple insider:
Consumers desire for mobile content drove the explosion in digital music and the growth of iPods. However, consumers became enamored with the quantity of music that the iPod enabled them to access, and sacrificed quality, in our view," he wrote in the report. "Going forward, we believe that consumers will expect mobility and will increasingly look for higher quality as the next step in improving their music experiences, particularly as consumers increasingly use iPods and iTunes as a source of content for home and car stereos."
Hargreaves cited sources who suggest that the economic split between EMI and Apple is likely to remain constant for the higher-quality, DRM-free songs that begin to crop up on iTunes starting next month. Since the songs will retail for $1.29 rather than $0.99, he estimates Apple to receive $0.09 of incremental gross profit per song. While delivery fees should double due to the larger file size of higher-quality songs, the analyst has assessed those network costs at $0.02 or less per song.
Assuming that half of EMI tracks purchased through iTunes will be of the higher-quality DRM-free tracks, Hargreaves estimates the move could generate approximately $24 million of incremental revenue, and just under $6 million of incremental profit for Apple in a year. In his note to clients, the analyst acknowledged that those numbers may seem insignificant, but said they would grow quickly if other labels followed suit in offering the DRM-free tracks.
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I should look into starting an independent label host site for high resolution music downloads, for unsigned & minor label bands to give away & sell their albums on @ full recorded resolution.
Then supply a link to a freeware program so that it can be burnt @ 16bit for cd or converted to mp3 for the ipod etc.
I have just read up on how to produce a full surround mix that will work perfectly as normal in stereo for those that don't have surround. This is the direction that music should be headed.
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i bought the Dimmu Borgir album "Death Cult Armagedon" and its in 5.1 and sounds fucking insain in that format...
more music SHOULD be done this way...
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Fucking oath man.