Author Topic: Do different valves really alter the amps sound? (Read 8373 times)

same same · « **on:** March 13, 2009, 06:56:50 AM »

EDIT: New question as my old one was answered just a few threads down.

Just wondering if certain tubes offer better tone or more distortion?

cyanide_christ · « **Reply #1 on:** March 13, 2009, 07:32:54 AM »

Of course they do.

cdtBEAST · « **Reply #2 on:** March 13, 2009, 07:14:48 PM »

FUCK YES.

It's as subjective as hell to. Getting a clear consensis is pretty much impossible.
There are some sites around that will give accurate advise on the tonal differences between tubes. So if you know what tubes you already have & you know what direction you want to go from where you already are then I am willing to throw my opinion in.
Different tubes definitley work better with different amps. eg: my 5150 sounds great with jj's in the preamp. My PITTBULL however sounds shocking, drop in a set of tung sol pre tubes & WHOLY FUCKING CHRIST ON A STICK it kills.
The 5150 sounds fantastic with groove tube GE 6L6's in the power section. In the Pittbull they sound like shit. Drop a set of Sovtek 6L6's in there & much better, a set of wingedC kt88's even better $$$ tho, a set of Sovtek kt88's FUCKING GREAT & they are the cheapest option. The Sovtek's not only sound better & cost less, they also last longer. Why? they just do. In other amps however the Sovtek's sound terrible & don't last.
All amps treat their tubes differently hence the never ending tube argument.

So what amp are you using & what tubes are you using?

old gregg · « **Reply #3 on:** March 13, 2009, 09:20:59 PM »

What do you suggest for a mesa dual recto my good man?

same same · « **Reply #4 on:** March 13, 2009, 09:42:55 PM »

http://www.kafelamps.com/products_s150.htm

KH Guitar Freak · « **Reply #5 on:** March 13, 2009, 10:49:13 PM »

Quote from: old gregg on March 13, 2009, 09:20:59 PM

What do you suggest for a mesa dual recto my good man?

If you are loaded with cash, Mesa SPAX7 preamps and Winged C 6L6s is one of the best ways to go...

goat · « **Reply #6 on:** March 14, 2009, 04:33:47 AM »

what about a 6505. currently i have Ruby Tubes.

cdtBEAST · « **Reply #7 on:** March 14, 2009, 11:56:11 PM »

Quote from: old gregg on March 13, 2009, 09:20:59 PM

What do you suggest for a mesa dual recto my good man?

What do you have in there currently? & what would you like to improve?

cdtBEAST · « **Reply #8 on:** March 15, 2009, 12:03:38 AM »

Quote from: goat on March 14, 2009, 04:33:47 AM

what about a 6505. currently i have Ruby Tubes.

In the pre- JJ's or groove tubes will give a more high gain compressed tone, shuguang/Penta Labs will brighten the tone NICELY, my fav are the Tung Sol in a 5150/6505.

In the power section- Groove tube GE are nice, WingedC are great. Ruby are also good. Make sure to get it biased hotter.

KH Guitar Freak · « **Reply #9 on:** March 15, 2009, 12:29:01 AM »

Quote from: goat on March 14, 2009, 04:33:47 AM

what about a 6505. currently i have Ruby Tubes.

Electroharmonix or Tung Sol in the preamp. There are a few poweramps that are nice; TADs, Winged Cs, and JJs are what I like...

goat · « **Reply #10 on:** March 16, 2009, 06:11:26 AM »

how can i tell which ones are the power and and which are pre's? cant believe i dont know this.

Nosaj · « **Reply #11 on:** March 16, 2009, 06:20:45 AM »

Thats easy. The size of the tubes. The smaller ones are the preamp and the larger ones are the power tubes.

goat · « **Reply #12 on:** March 16, 2009, 06:41:40 AM »

ah, if it were that simple i wulda proly sussed it, but my tubes are all the same size. Big.

KH Guitar Freak · « **Reply #13 on:** March 16, 2009, 08:02:05 AM »

Quote from: goat on March 16, 2009, 06:41:40 AM

ah, if it were that simple i wulda proly sussed it, but my tubes are all the same size. Big.

The preamps are smaller, bloody obvious indeed...

Ormsby_Guitars · « **Reply #14 on:** March 16, 2009, 09:19:14 AM »

the preamp tubes in a 6505 are hidden behind a panel on the back...

goat · « **Reply #15 on:** March 16, 2009, 04:52:44 PM »

a seclet panel....sounds mysterious.
cool, thanks man.

goat · « **Reply #16 on:** March 16, 2009, 06:50:58 PM »

checked out the pre tubes and the first two are electro harmonix and the rest are JJ's.
power section are all ruby's.

is mixing the pre tubes like that advisable?

KH Guitar Freak · « **Reply #17 on:** March 16, 2009, 10:24:56 PM »

Quote from: goat on March 16, 2009, 06:50:58 PM

checked out the pre tubes and the first two are electro harmonix and the rest are JJ's.
power section are all ruby's.

is mixing the pre tubes like that advisable?

Mix and match the preamps all you want. You might prefer certain preamps for certain positions...

cdtBEAST · « **Reply #18 on:** March 18, 2009, 01:15:00 AM »

Yea you can mix the pre tubes any way you like.

If you change the power tubes though you will have to get the amp biased. Although if you don't know when the tubes were last replaced/biased, then I would suggest getting ALL your tubes tested, as 1 bad tube will fuck up your sound.

Give Jim Wills from blue Glow a call. 0417970318. I will personally recomend his work. Most times he can get any tube you want, usually cheaper than dougs tubes online. Plus he checks & tests them all before they go in your amp. If they are damaged or test up substandard before going in, you don't wear the cost or the hassle of chasing up the supplier.

He modded the bias on my 5150, replaced all the capacitors & got me some sweetass tubes. Also added a kettle style plug to the back

I ordered pre & power tubes for my PITTBULL last tues, they arrived thurs, He tested all my old tubes for me, fitted & biased it within 45mins on saturday, 15mins before we jammed. The guy is a champ.

He is running RS components now out in osbourne park.

goat · « **Reply #19 on:** March 20, 2009, 04:39:35 AM »

do you mind if i ask how much he charged for that man?

dont supposed he itemised it so you can give me an idea of what its worth up till the kettle plug?

cheers Mate.

cdtBEAST · « **Reply #20 on:** March 20, 2009, 07:20:58 PM »

Fuck me, that was a while a go now for the 5150. In my experience, his work is soe of the best I have seen. He isn't an arrogant prick, which is a nice change & to top it off he is cheaper & mre eliable than any of the other amp tech's I have met.
He will also go out of his way to get specific parts for you.
The guy is Texan & talks more than me though, so be prepared for some lengthy conversation.

When he replaced the caps in my 5150, he used higher quality components & it didnt cost me any extra.

goat · « **Reply #21 on:** March 21, 2009, 12:55:21 AM »

no worries, will check it out sometime. gotta buy a sub for recording studio yet.

-=[Cataclysm]=- · « **Reply #22 on:** March 24, 2009, 11:17:14 PM »

Quote from: old gregg on March 13, 2009, 09:20:59 PM

What do you suggest for a mesa dual recto my good man?

dude do what i did and go through Doug's tubes site. He is really helpful and to buy and send the tubes over from America was bullshit cheap.

You basically get onto his site and put down what sort of amp you have, what tone you are after, what artists/album you dig the guitar sound on and he suggests what combination of preamp/power tubes to do the trick.

He sorted me out for my mesa dual with:

power -
RUBY 6L6GCMSTR matched quad
pre -
> > V1 - Tung-Sol reissue 12AX7
> > V2 - High gain JJ ECC83S
> > V3 - Penta Labs 12AX7
> > V4 - Shuguang 12AX7C9
> > V5 - Sovtek 12AX7LPS

and it made a HUGE difference to the standard mesa tubes.

cdtBEAST · « **Reply #23 on:** March 25, 2009, 01:46:47 AM »

If you have a popular amp like a mesa or 5150 & want a particular tone especially if it to is popular & popular pickups, then douges tubes is a winner & I would recommend them.

However if you have a boutique amp Diezel, VHT, Rivera, Bogner etc & use custom wound pickups & you are chasing a particular sound, Douges is still helpful, however limited.

If your amp/pickup situation or the tone you are chasing is out there, then it is best to start by chasing up sites that offer tube comparisons. Then look in your amp & see what it has. Figure out what you do & don't like about the tone of your amp currently & use the chart to reign it in to where you want it.
Also read up on your amp & figure out which tubes do what before doing anything else.

same same · « **Reply #24 on:** April 09, 2009, 03:34:50 AM »

Just Got a RG50TC combo, Any idea what tubes i should put in it?
Has:
Two EL34 power tubes Or might be 6L6 Tubes
Four 12AX7EHS

KH Guitar Freak · « **Reply #25 on:** April 09, 2009, 04:45:30 AM »

I tried a Mesa SPAX7 preamp valve in V1 of my Roadster, and now its quiet and the attack is more immediate now...

JohnnyC · « **Reply #26 on:** April 09, 2009, 08:43:04 PM »

there is plenty of good info on the net(and this thread) but id just use it as a guideline.
dont get me wrong ...im all up for finding the best combination of pre and power tubes and have spent/wasted plenty of time and $ trying out all diffrent types but at the end of the day, If you arent happy with the sound of your amp and think changing tubes is going to magicaly alter the sound, be prepared to be dissapointed.

IMO theres not THAT much noticable diffrence between changing brand x with brand Y of a same type of most brands of tubes. changing the first gain stage preamp tube will generally show some changes and sure one type may have more <insert corksniffery term> compared to another... but seriously the tone of end result isnt that much diffrent. (especially with these high gainer amps with all the cascading gain stages)

and this doenst even take into account drift in tube specification over diffrent batches.

if you change tube type thats another story...but IMO if your not happy with the sound youve either

A) got the wrong amp (for you)
b) got the wrong speaker/cab (for your amp)
C) have something defective/malfunctioning somewhere in the chain (which includes the person playing the instrument/amp)

id take a lot of tube type reviews on the net with a grain of salt...as tone is subjective...and theres just too many variables to take into account

eg...someone who states that brand xyz of tubes made a "world of a diffrence"...etc could have just:
1) replaced old/worn/dud tubes with new tubes that are biased correctly (same as driving a car with shit oil/flat tyres...then getting good oil/and racing slicks etc)
2) been talking themselves into justifying their spending their $$$ on a product.

JohnnyC · « **Reply #27 on:** April 09, 2009, 08:56:25 PM »

Quote from: cdtBEAST on March 25, 2009, 01:46:47 AM

If you have a popular amp like a mesa or 5150 & want a particular tone especially if it to is popular & popular pickups, then douges tubes is a winner & I would recommend them.

However if you have a boutique amp Diezel, VHT, Rivera, Bogner etc & use custom wound pickups & you are chasing a particular sound, Douges is still helpful, however limited.

If your amp/pickup situation or the tone you are chasing is out there, then it is best to start by chasing up sites that offer tube comparisons. Then look in your amp & see what it has. Figure out what you do & don't like about the tone of your amp currently & use the chart to reign it in to where you want it.
Also read up on your amp & figure out which tubes do what before doing anything else.

+1 on this advice.
and ive ordered from dougs tubes, the tubestore, and eurotubes and have had no hassles with any of them. those guys love to get all geeky and chat about stuff

also learning about how your amp and biasing is a real bonus.
many sources for biasing information just specify plate (or cathode) current settings eg telling you to bias your 6L6s at "35 milliamps" really is misleading.

Unless you take the plate voltage of the amp into consideration, a current specification is meaningless.

same same · « **Reply #28 on:** April 10, 2009, 02:54:14 AM »

Excuse my lack of knowledge on the subject but should all the valves be glowing in my Combo? One of the two power tubes (EL34 I think) doesn't seam to glow at all.

cdtBEAST · « **Reply #29 on:** April 15, 2009, 02:12:36 AM »

get it checked by a professional BEFORE you play it any more. If there is a serious problem here it WILL FUCK your amp.

cdtBEAST · « **Reply #30 on:** April 15, 2009, 02:27:09 AM »

I have found the biggest changes in tone will come from v1 in the pre & your power tubes.

Basically v1 is your noticable distortion. Your power tubes are your drive & how loud your amp can go cleanly/ headroom. You will notice the differences in power tube tone as you increase the volume. All get warmer with volume. Some have extended treble response, some have extended treble response without distorting. Some will distort earlier giving more drive & others will just keep getting louder without much distortion @ all.

Changing tubes will not alter the fundamental tone of the amp. They can help with small annoying tonal issues though.

Amps like the 5150 rely on a balance of the pre & power section to generate tone. This however can lead to issues as when you find the perfect tone, you can't move anything & everyone else has to work around you.

Amps like the pittbull & Diezel tend to generate most of their tone through the pre section, meaning you can wind the volume knob around & the tone stays cosistant other than it gets a little warmer with more volume.

becuase these amps don't rely on the power tubes as much, they tend to look after them a lot better.

This is less of a problem with el34 based amps as they are designed to sound great loud as that is where the el34 tube is designed to operate. Loud & hot.

The Diezel Herbert fixes all these issues by, having a kick ass pre section on all channels, running 6 power tubes so they don't get overworked. It can run el34, 6L6 & kt88. But it's fucking awseome feature is that it can run 2 el34's, 2 6L6's & 2 kt88's @ THE SAME TIME. Giving you the best of all worlds.

RichardMTS · « **Reply #31 on:** April 24, 2009, 08:49:45 PM »

Since there's a few guys here that know what there talking about I would like to ask a question

I have acquired a VH100R loaded with electro harmonix EL34's, I would like to change them over to 6L6's there is a switch on the back to change the bias from el34 to 6L6.
Now i know tubes aren't always exactly the same as each other so i will have to order a matched quad but will the bias switch be enough to just swap them over or will i still have to get the amp rebiased? I have read elsewhere that they're a pretty solidly built head so it should be a simple case of swapping and switching but as someone stated before don't believe everything you read on the internet!
Also does anyone have a ball park figure of what this will cost and how long they need the amp for?
Any help would be greatly appreciated

JohnnyC · « **Reply #32 on:** April 24, 2009, 10:55:34 PM »

Quote from: RichardMTS on April 24, 2009, 08:49:45 PM

Since there's a few guys here that know what there talking about I would like to ask a question
I have acquired a VH100R loaded with electro harmonix EL34's, I would like to change them over to 6L6's there is a switch on the back to change the bias from el34 to 6L6.
Now i know tubes aren't always exactly the same as each other so i will have to order a matched quad but will the bias switch be enough to just swap them over or will i still have to get the amp rebiased? I have read elsewhere that they're a pretty solidly built head so it should be a simple case of swapping and switching but as someone stated before don't believe everything you read on the internet!
Also does anyone have a ball park figure of what this will cost and how long they need the amp for?
Any help would be greatly appreciated

the switch will get you roughly in the ballpark.
i would still get it biased.

same same · « **Reply #33 on:** April 26, 2009, 11:16:39 AM »

Quote

Shocked
get it checked by a professional BEFORE you play it any more. If there is a serious problem here it WILL FUCK your amp.

I haven't played it since that last post, But tonight i decided to turn in on and turn the lights off to see if it was glowing at all, turned out to be a good idea as i noticed that there was a blue Hue surrounding the one working Powertube!!! SO both tubes are cooked yeah?

Should i just replace these, or get the Whole amp checked? How much would that set me back, As a student im usually broke unless kevin stimulates me......

Really sux cause im suppose to let some one demo the jackson though it tomorrow.......

same same · « **Reply #34 on:** April 26, 2009, 11:12:21 PM »

So, I've read that the Randall RG50TC can take 6L6 vavles and it give the amp a more rounded out sound. Anyone know if there is a place in Bentley or if a place can pickup my amp (I no car

). Do I have to buy the valves or can they supply them?

erecshyrinol · « **Reply #35 on:** April 29, 2009, 02:35:54 AM »

A couple of good sites, infowise and ordering online:

http://thetubestore.com/

https://ssl.eurotubes.com/cart/index.php

I'm thinking of retubing the EL34s in my Bugera to 6L6s.

cdtBEAST · « **Reply #36 on:** April 29, 2009, 02:36:22 AM »

Get the amp biased.

Asfor prices/professional advice give Jim @ Blue Glow a call after 5 any week day 0417970318 & he will look after you. Tell him Simon with the VHT & 5150 sent you.