Decline?

[RawBrutalJamo]

Shows you guys how often I come on here since I've only just seen this thread.  Sorry if I'm re-stating alot of which has already been said.

Anyways my 2 cents about the decline of the scene.  Because it has been noticible for the past couple of years.  Personally I thought it was its most strongest from 2005 till about late 2008 (06 and 07 being my fav years).  There are very many factors I believe that have contributed to that.

1.  Money has become tighter:  We all have to agree this is one of the major factors since late 08.  Many people lost their jobs around this time and a lot including myself had to make do with making a lot less money on a fortnightly/weekly basis.

2.  Over-saturation:  While the people who have been making less money more and more gigs have been put on, on a weekly basis.  Which in turn means 2 gigs a weekend for most weekends, which then means alot of double sometimes triple booking, which then means the same bands playing constantly.  In the end it means lack of interest in seeing same bands and less money for punters, promotors, venues and the bands themselves.

3.  Same old shit:  Kind of repeating myself from the last point but interest has started to deteriorate since same bands are always playing and alot of the new bands that come out are just playing similar shit to what others have already done.  So interest is declining.

4.  Not enough people checking out the new generation of bands:  On the other hand even though alot of new bands aren't really doing anything much that excites the casual metal fan, there is a kind of bad attitude of alot of the regular punters these days, that if there's a new band that doesn't have one of "your mates" in it, then its not worth watching.  Not only does this make it harder for new bands to be accepted, it also doesn't help Factor 2 or 3.

5.  Scene has gone its seperate ways:  Alot of major bands of the previous years have either disappeared, gone recording, changed their lineup or just played too much.  The scene has lost alot of its closeness because the bonds have been broken between alot of mates in the scene as well and people have gone into their own little groups.  No longer are we all going back to Big Mac's or someones's after gigs for a huge afters party because alot of us have changed and gone our own ways.

6.  Venues:  Amps has turned to shit (management, alcohol has gone up, more fags at gigs), Castle has a bad rep and warm beers, Rosemount, Civic and Charles doesn't want to do regular metal gigs, Rocket Room is a great venue but bands have a small stage, Freo is too far away for most to trek to and so on.  We are used to moving venues constantly in this scene but without a venue that most punters enjoy going to regularly without having to search gig guides on WF, X-press, Drum Media or whatever the casual punter doesn't know where the fuck to go.

7.  Scene needs fresher faces:  As good as it is seeing how talented alot of people are in the scene playing for 2 or more bands it also means alot of others aren't given the chance to shine on some of the bills and again it comes down to people getting bored of seeing the same people up there.

I'm sure there's other reasons but these are the main ones I can think of.  But I'm sure this is just a down period because their is a whole new younger generation I've noticed becoming regulars to gigs as well.  And the recent Evolution Machine debut proves that their definitely is still life in the scene.

[Grim]

Allegiance used to consistently pull large crowds because they were great. The scene was far smaller with only 2-3 international bands coming through each year. While some people have brought up some good points in regard to smaller turnouts, I think what i've read in this thread is mostly rubbish.

I say this for the 3rd time. You can promote all you like but if people try your product a few times and don't like it that much then they won't go out of their way to see you again.

I've noticed people reinforcing each others delusions that it's factors outside of themselves that are responsible for poor turnouts at their gigs. When I suggest that better music is the way to go people say "Oh no. It can't be that" or simply ignore me. The truth can be confronting. Maybe your music isn't as good as you think it is.

Wake up!

[Damo]

It doesnt matter how good your music is if you cant organise a decent lineup and venue to throw your music out there.

Bands who gig just to gain crowds are kidding themselves. I could film a gig, chuck it on youtube and have it reaching more people in an hour than a local band could generate in six months.

Bands gig because gigs are fun and it lets the fortunate few see the band for what it is.

If you have good music (which is highly subjective, but whatever) then you have the potential for a good turnout on gig number 2.
With organisation, you wont even get to see gig number 1.

Also, many bands are simply lazy, and dont come to gigs with new material. This results in regular followers eventually falling away as theres nothing new for them to see from band x. This is particularly true in the metal scene, as the followers are repeat customers - theres a great loyalty amongst metal listeners. I think if the format is constantly suprising, if the band can bring new material to the table, and if they are organised enough to let everyone know that its something different, things would change.

[chancellorisgod]

I think one of the biggest reasons the decline has been so apparent recently is due to a lot of popular/successful bands recording too, if you compare the bills from early 09 to what is happening now you can kinda see a pattern develop...

[Senton]

I dont get how 'playing too much' is a factor? You like metal (or any music), the chance to see it played live once/twice a month should be a gift no? You listen to a cd at home or in the care how many times, people go see (some) cover bands in pubs playing the same sets of songs, why is it seen as bad to play often? Its a good chance to learn your craft in front of an audience and shake off the stage fright.

Also Freo isnt that far, i used to make the trek from Rockingham to the Grosevenor back room (sans kwinana freeway south) to see bands.

People are getting picky about what they spend their time and money on, so pull your pants up and write better songs 

[goat]

the last three posts were pretty dead on as far as im concerned too.

Its a matter of what will get done about it.

Allegiance used to consistently pull large crowds because they were great. The scene was far smaller with only 2-3 international bands coming through each year. While some people have brought up some good points in regard to smaller turnouts, I think what i've read in this thread is mostly rubbish.

I say this for the 3rd time. You can promote all you like but if people try your product a few times and don't like it that much then they won't go out of their way to see you again.

I've noticed people reinforcing each others delusions that it's factors outside of themselves that are responsible for poor turnouts at their gigs. When I suggest that better music is the way to go people say "Oh no. It can't be that" or simply ignore me. The truth can be confronting. Maybe your music isn't as good as you think it is.

Wake up!

There's a point where anything can be taken too far.
Some metal is in this category IMO.

Some metal thats being played "here" is definately in this category. How much??

Maybe we should take a poll?

This could be very intersting indeed. That, or im gonna get absolutely slammed head first.

[Grim]

There is some light in this cave.

[Grim]

Btw Jez, I think 200 payers or more at a cd launch is a good effort for a local band. I have noticed the Neverborn guys work at what they do and Darren does an excellent job of management and promotion for them.

[venismecha]

Sometimes the appeal of a local gig is because it's a value-added night at the pub. You can go and see your mates at the bar, while there's a half-decent band playing.

So yes, this is why the venue itself and the price of drinks is a factor at a regular weekend gig (i.e. not a launch, not a festival, not an international band). It should be a place you actually want to go to. Some venues even Maxi P would have a hard time saving.

The Hydie was always fun to hang out at even if the bands weren't the greatest, because it just plain had a good vibe.

[goat]

Btw Jez, I think 200 payers or more at a cd launch is a good effort for a local band. I have noticed the Neverborn guys work at what they do and Darren does an excellent job of management and promotion for them.

Yeah, Neverborn are very talented. Song writing is very fucking clever at times, i dig it.

[Grim]

The Hydie was always fun to hang out at even if the bands weren't the greatest, because it just plain had a good vibe.


Even with no bands the vibe is great. NYE is a perfect example of this. A lot of my good mates I met through going to gigs. This is the reason I sometimes go to gigs with bands that hardly appeal to me. 

[WarNick]

It doesnt matter how good your music is if you cant organise a decent lineup and venue to throw your music out there.

If you have good music (which is highly subjective, but whatever) then you have the potential for a good turnout on gig number 2.
With organisation, you wont even get to see gig number 1.

At the end of the day the music produced is all subject to opinion. This applies to Neverborn and their launch, afterall. 200 people at Heat or whatever they like to be called now can't be called a failure as getting numbers there for any local gig has never been an easy feet. If you're going to judge the success of your CD launch on whether you managed to break even then you need to take a good look at your budget and where you could have made things more cost effective. Either that or explore more innovative ways of recouping your losses or covering your overheads.

Also from a band marketing perspective: if you can't see what potential issues you can have from playing too frequently ie. every single weekend you will soon learn, that is if you don't have your own nose too far up your bumhole to realise.

[Grim]

Your a clever one Nick

[hatefueled]

i like bands pulling their weight to get people there instead of just restricting themselves to popular venues so they look good, i like the castle.

Dont bands want to pull less weight ? Arnt they there to show the crowd what they have spent time and effort developing ? To see a band "pull weight" and put on a killer set is great but wouldnt you rather as a band avoid the need to motivate your audience to come and see you when the pulling power of a well organized gig and a prominent venue can do that for you?

The venues promote the gig as a whole by advertising it on their webites and submitting the gigs to xpress n drum n things but only the bands have access to their fans specifically, people that like the band tend to follow them on myspace and facebook or are friends or evend a friend of a friend to a band member. its up to the band so spread the word of their show to those people because a venue wont text all your mates for you or send a msg through the band's websites or myspaces.

[Damo]

The problem with playing regularly is that it devalues each event in the punters eyes. Basically, if they arent feeling 100% psyched about an upcoming show, they may just leave it and catch you at the next one, knowing itll be within 2-3 weeks after.

If you dont play as often, each gig becomes more of an event and a rarer opportunity to see a band. People tend to make more effort for it, in my experience anyway.

[Nosaj]

Another thing there hasn't been any gig that see bands doing band covers for a while. For example a Metallica or Ironmaiden tribute night.
The metallica gig that was organised to coincide with the ST Anger launch pulled in a large crowd. Mind You the crowd thinned out after we(Centaur) finished and Blacksteel came on. Hell the crowd was fuckin huge before Scourge even started playing.

[Damo]

Was that the Black Betty's show, Nos?

[whammy]

Another thing there hasn't been any gig that see bands doing band covers for a while. For example a Metallica or Ironmaiden tribute night.
The metallica gig that was organised to coincide with the ST Anger launch pulled in a large crowd. Mind You the crowd thinned out after we(Centaur) finished and Blacksteel came on. Hell the crowd was fuckin huge before Scourge even started playing.

yeah that was a good gig...capitol and amplifier open together

[Catalyst]

Btw Jez, I think 200 payers or more at a cd launch is a good effort for a local band. I have noticed the Neverborn guys work at what they do and Darren does an excellent job of management and promotion for them.

 Yeah, Neverborn are very talented. Song writing is very fucking clever at times, i dig it.

Thanks guys, kind words never go to waste, and Daz IS the man.  
Look, 200 in the club is good for the scene at the moment no doubt.  We don't feel like big failures or anything, it just feels to me like it should have been that much bigger, and it wasn't.   So we can sit back and bitch at home or we can step up and let the WF crew have their say, and fuck me but haven't they just!

1. I am all for the concept of "write better material and they will come" concept, but that is easier said than done.  Just speaking for MY band, we spent years working on our newer material.  It went from demos on the computer to a studio rough cut to the final recording, three recordings per song, and all the way down the line we were refining, modifying, enhancing.  We are writing the BEST that we can, and are proud of our new album, and all the other bands out there are making what they think is top music too no doubt.  The trick seems to be to write more generic material with a solid demographic genre to aim at, like brutal death.... but the bandwagon is of no interest to some of us.  So basically, write the same old shit for the same old people and you get your instant gratification, or strike out boldly into new territory and the only way you know if your material is good is to give it time to reach people.  Either way, how do you really know if you need to "write better songs"?

2. Bands are in a quandry really.  
You play too often, people say you oversaturate.
You play too little, you are forgotten, obsurity descends upon you.
You play too much new material, people don't know the songs and don't groove with you.  
You play too much older material, people say that you play the same songs ad nauseum and that's boring.  
Here's my take on it:  The more we play, the more we gain supporters, so we will play just about any gig we get offered and do our best to play every gig we get as hard as we can.  If that is oversaturation, I can roll with it.  And we keep on writing new stuff all the time, but there is a rush in playing songs people know well and scream the words back at you, so we will continue to play plenty of our best known numbers live.  Is that boring?   Each band has to decide that for themselves.

3. Yep.  No money, drinks costly, rough bouncers, shitty venues, blah blah blah.  I don't care about that shit, I just want to know what we can do to make people not CARE about any of that shit and hit the gigs anyway.  And there have been some really good ideas here.  I love the internet angle you guys are talking up, the free entry for chicks, keep them coming.  

[venismecha]

Ummmm

Hire a hall so it can be byo?

[chantian_deanie]

That would be sweet.

[ironguardian]

Hire a hall so it can be byo?

What's the legality of that?

[chantian_deanie]

Donno but they do it at the hall across the road from my house all the time and don't get busted. Considering the riot squad got called in after one of the parties there a year or so ago you'd think they be on top of it if it wasn't legal.

[DamoESP]

Pretty sure there would be some sort of insurance involved etc unless that is covered in the cost of hiring the hall.

[goat]

Hire a hall so it can be byo?

What's the legality of that?

ya need a liquor license whether you sell or not i think, but basicly the hall owners wont allow alot of shit. I remember doing a gig with Kin and some others years ago and lets just say, that went towards fucking it up for everyone. cops, bottles, news crews, etc.

Btw Jez, I think 200 payers or more at a cd launch is a good effort for a local band. I have noticed the Neverborn guys work at what they do and Darren does an excellent job of management and promotion for them.

  Yeah, Neverborn are very talented. Song writing is very fucking clever at times, i dig it.

Thanks guys, kind words never go to waste, and Daz IS the man. 
Look, 200 in the club is good for the scene at the moment no doubt.  We don't feel like big failures or anything, it just feels to me like it should have been that much bigger, and it wasn't.   So we can sit back and bitch at home or we can step up and let the WF crew have their say, and fuck me but haven't they just!

1. I am all for the concept of "write better material and they will come" concept, but that is easier said than done.  Just speaking for MY band, we spent years working on our newer material.  It went from demos on the computer to a studio rough cut to the final recording, three recordings per song, and all the way down the line we were refining, modifying, enhancing.  We are writing the BEST that we can, and are proud of our new album, and all the other bands out there are making what they think is top music too no doubt.  The trick seems to be to write more generic material with a solid demographic genre to aim at, like brutal death.... but the bandwagon is of no interest to some of us.  So basically, write the same old shit for the same old people and you get your instant gratification, or strike out boldly into new territory and the only way you know if your material is good is to give it time to reach people.  Either way, how do you really know if you need to "write better songs"?

2. Bands are in a quandry really. 
You play too often, people say you oversaturate.
You play too little, you are forgotten, obsurity descends upon you.
You play too much new material, people don't know the songs and don't groove with you. 
You play too much older material, people say that you play the same songs ad nauseum and that's boring. 
Here's my take on it:  The more we play, the more we gain supporters, so we will play just about any gig we get offered and do our best to play every gig we get as hard as we can.  If that is oversaturation, I can roll with it.  And we keep on writing new stuff all the time, but there is a rush in playing songs people know well and scream the words back at you, so we will continue to play plenty of our best known numbers live.  Is that boring?   Each band has to decide that for themselves.

3. Yep.  No money, drinks costly, rough bouncers, shitty venues, blah blah blah.  I don't care about that shit, I just want to know what we can do to make people not CARE about any of that shit and hit the gigs anyway.  And there have been some really good ideas here.  I love the internet angle you guys are talking up, the free entry for chicks, keep them coming. 

Not to forget Perth Is a fucking small place too, i guess its safe to say metal is just not as popular as it used to be here.
for whatever reason, it can be fixed.

A quality venue, with regular metal nights over a fair stretch of time a year is a good start.
When i say quality venue, i mean a decent PA and sound dude, with decent acoustics and bass trapping, not a shitbox that has a fucking heratige listing, and a bunch of fucked up antique loudhailers as a soundsystem.

man, people have been getting quality sound for cheap now for years with technology as it is.
Then you roll up to a gig with some of the crap heaps they have there for sound, man you gotta be kidding.
That sorta shit's had its day, people just dont wanna be subjected to it, simple. Some of these joints actually hurt my ears and im a seasoned chicken.