Author Topic: Nergal gets off!  (Read 13268 times)

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Offline dparker

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Re: Nergal gets off!
« Reply #50 on: July 03, 2010, 08:42:31 PM »
I'm curious as to where everyone gained their negative perspective religion. Just seems like a cool thing to be anti religious. Holy Rollers to cool for the trend though.

Whether you believe it or not, I drew my own conclusions in regards to religion (and they aren't remotely influenced by the whole "being metal" charade, I've essentially held the same views for longer than I've been an active listener of music), and I probably had a bit of a head-start in the sense that my family didn't influence me religiously in any way. The earliest event I can recall that turned me off religion happened in year 5... I don't entirely remember what the class was masqueraded as, but basically it was a Christian "education" class, championed by the school chaplain, that took advantage of us kids' natural interest in Christmas/Easter/etc, to cram religious propaganda in to our minds. I found it extremely boring, confusing, and irrelevant to whatever I gave a crap about at that time, so I told my mother about this class, and she was outraged about the class, and had me withdrawn from it (this was at a public school, mind you).

In general though, my stance against religion is based on my own observations, and the conflict between my own philosophies/morals/ethics/worldviews, as well as my independent nature. I honestly see quite a bit of bad in religion (however the blame for wrong-doings lies purely on the individuals, not the religion), and extremists disgust me to the very core of my self, but I have no problem with the average believer who doesn't shove their beliefs in other peoples faces. It's their right to do what they will with their life... and yes, people who go around causing shit and attacking the religious types are JUST AS BAD as the extremists and holier-than-thou converters. I mean, attempting to convert someone in itself isn't so bad, it's more about the means than the end. Offering someone alternative viewpoints, and leaving the ball in their court is one thing, but harassing, condemning and threatening people is weak, immoral and deserves no tolerance.

EDIT: Just thought I'd mention that my mother holds her own spiritual views, and my father has become quite the religious type himself in the past years, and none of this has influenced me in the slightest.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2010, 08:44:05 PM by dparker »
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Offline Grim

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Re: Nergal gets off!
« Reply #51 on: July 03, 2010, 08:57:18 PM »

Its not really a circular logic. There are two principles in science; laws and theories. Laws are universal and cannot be derived, like relativity. Theories are formed from observations of the real world, such as gravity or the model of the atom. Scientific models are built up around theories and make many predictions. As science progresses these predictions are put to the test and a lot of the time hold true, there is no faith involved in real world testing as you can actually see the results yourself to confirm your prediction.

The laws of physics and of logic... the number system... the principle of algebraic substitution. These are ghosts. We just believe in them so thoroughly they seem real.

For example, it seems completely natural to presume that gravitation and the law of gravitation existed before Isaac Newton. It would sound nutty to think that until the seventeenth century there was no gravity.

So when did this law start? Has it always existed? What I'm driving at is the notion that that before the beginning of the earth, before the sun and the stars were formed, before the primal generation of anything the law of gravity existed. Sitting there having no mass of it's own, no energy of it's own, not in anyone's mind, because there wasn't anyone, not in space because there was no space either, not anywhere, this law still existed?

If that law of gravity existed, I honestly don't know what a thing has to do to be non-existant, it seems to me that the law of gravity has passed every test of non-existance there is. You cannot think of  a single attribute of non-existance that the law of gravity didn't have. Or a single scientific attribute it did have. And yet is still common sense to believe that it existed.

I predict that if you think about it long enough you will find yourself going round and round and round until you finally reach only one possible, rational, intelligent conclusion. The law of gravity and gravity itself did not exist before Isaac Newton. No other conclusion makes sense.

And what that means is the law of gravity exists nowhere except in peoples heads! It's a ghost!


Offline chantian_deanie

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Re: Nergal gets off!
« Reply #52 on: July 03, 2010, 11:16:42 PM »
Scientific laws are based on scientific observations and scientific observations are based on scientific laws. How is that not circular?

Offline chancellorisgod

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Re: Nergal gets off!
« Reply #53 on: July 03, 2010, 11:18:30 PM »
Scientific laws are based on scientific observations and scientific observations are based on scientific laws. How is that not circular?

Saying that is all well and good but some science is just irrefutable dude, what about gravity?

Offline chantian_deanie

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Re: Nergal gets off!
« Reply #54 on: July 03, 2010, 11:27:34 PM »
Well things seem to fall towards larger objects. Can you prove to me that it is caused by the force we call gravity and not by magic or by god. What's more can you prove to me that just because we have seen it happen before that it will happen forever?

For the record, I have FAITH in science and see it as the most believable belief system I have so far encountered, all I am saying is that logically there is no more proof for it than any other belief system.

Offline schist

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Re: Nergal gets off!
« Reply #55 on: July 03, 2010, 11:39:09 PM »
Scientific laws are based on scientific observations and scientific observations are based on scientific laws. How is that not circular?

Saying that is all well and good but some science is just irrefutable dude, what about gravity?

Gravity?!?!

Pfft, the earth is flat and you know that as well as I do.

Offline Grim

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Re: Nergal gets off!
« Reply #56 on: July 04, 2010, 01:56:09 AM »
My strongest faith also lays in science, but...

Can you see gravity?
Can you taste gravity?
Can you feel gravity?
Can you hear gravity?
Can you touch gravity?

No! You cannot! You can only experience (perceive) it's effects. As I stated earlier there is nothing but perception and the force that allows perception (sometimes reffered to as quality).


The problem, the problem scientists are stuck with, is that of mind Mind has no matter or energy but they can't escape it's predominance over everthing they do. Logic exists in the mind. Numbers exist only in the mind. I don't get upset when scientists say that ghosts exist in the mind. It's that only that gets me. Science is only in your mind too.

Laws of nature are human inventions, like ghosts. The whole blessed thing is a human invention, including the idea that it isn't a human invention. The world has no existance outside the imagination. It's all a ghost, the whole world we live in. it's run by ghosts. We see what we see because these these ghosts show it to us. Ghosts of Moses and Christ and the Buddha and Plato and Descartes, and Rousseau and Jefferson and Lincoln and on and on. Isaac Newton is a very good ghost. One of the best, your common sense is nothing more than the voices of thousands and thousands of these ghosts.

(*Edit: Some of what I've said here is from ZEN AND THE ART OF MOTORCYCLE MAINTENANCE. Though I do hold it to be true as far as I can tell)
« Last Edit: July 04, 2010, 04:51:18 PM by Grim »

Offline ChuckBilly

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Re: Nergal gets off!
« Reply #57 on: July 04, 2010, 03:10:01 AM »
Uhhh yeah sooo....

How about that guy tearing up a bible?
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Offline chantian_deanie

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Re: Nergal gets off!
« Reply #58 on: July 04, 2010, 03:19:26 AM »
About him, if it was against the law he should be punished because he knew it was and he did it anyway. If it was legal and they are just trying to bully him then good for him for being acquitted. Whether or not it should be against the law is besides the point.

Offline chancellorisgod

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Re: Nergal gets off!
« Reply #59 on: July 04, 2010, 03:45:02 AM »
Yeah I don't think ripping up the bible is specifically against the law but it kinda falls under the charge of blasphemy I guess. From what I hear he got off on freedom of speech :)

Offline dparker

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Re: Nergal gets off!
« Reply #60 on: July 04, 2010, 06:56:28 AM »
About him, if it was against the law he should be punished because he knew it was and he did it anyway. If it was legal and they are just trying to bully him then good for him for being acquitted. Whether or not it should be against the law is besides the point.

Yeah, maybe so, but it is still a stupid law... for brevity's sake, I'll say I "believe" in science... because I'm not an immature fuckwit, I couldn't care less if someone tore up a chemistry book in plain sight, ignited the shreds, and pissed on the embers... if anything, I'd find it funny, especially if they paid for it. Such stupid laws SHOULD be challenged by the individual. Call it progress.
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Offline Grim

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Re: Nergal gets off!
« Reply #61 on: July 04, 2010, 08:09:39 AM »
I was really hoping someone could seriously challenge my beliefs.

But yeah... No-one should be charged for destroying a bible.

Offline chantian_deanie

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Re: Nergal gets off!
« Reply #62 on: July 04, 2010, 08:18:23 AM »
Not all laws make perfect sense but the law in general is there for a reason. You don't like the laws in place? Protest them legitimately. You know the law and break it on purpose you get what your deserve or what you wanted to get to prove your point. I don't do any drugs anymore but I find Australian drugs laws, especially those relating to marijuana foolish at best, however you walk up to a cop and blow smoke in his face you deserve to go to jail for it. Supposing for a second that the act of ripping up bibles was actually illegal in Poland (which it appears it isn't) this guy wasn't doing this shit in the privacy of his own home he was doing it in front of thousands of people he was rubbing his actions in the face of the law giving them no option but to crack down on him.

Offline dparker

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Re: Nergal gets off!
« Reply #63 on: July 04, 2010, 08:49:18 AM »
Not all laws make perfect sense but the law in general is there for a reason. You don't like the laws in place? Protest them legitimately. You know the law and break it on purpose you get what your deserve or what you wanted to get to prove your point. I don't do any drugs anymore but I find Australian drugs laws, especially those relating to marijuana foolish at best, however you walk up to a cop and blow smoke in his face you deserve to go to jail for it. Supposing for a second that the act of ripping up bibles was actually illegal in Poland (which it appears it isn't) this guy wasn't doing this shit in the privacy of his own home he was doing it in front of thousands of people he was rubbing his actions in the face of the law giving them no option but to crack down on him.

Yeah, fair enough, I don't disagree with you entirely... however, on the account of blowing marijuana smoke in a police officer's (or anyone's) face, I'd consider that a breach of their personal security, freedoms and rights... downright rude if anything... unless of course they asked for some second hand smoke, or otherwise established that they don't mind. :p
I mean, do you think a cop is going to tolerate you blowing tobacco smoke straight in their face? So, in a sense, that argument is non-sequitur.
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Offline Grim

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Re: Nergal gets off!
« Reply #64 on: July 04, 2010, 02:28:24 PM »
Why should christian values be placed above the values of others in the law system? I want to take christians to court for telling me I'm going to hell for not worshipping their god. I find it offensive. This will not happen. So fuck christianity.

...for brevity's sake, I'll say I "believe" in science... because I'm not an immature fuckwit, I couldn't care less if someone tore up a chemistry book in plain sight, ignited the shreds, and pissed on the embers... if anything, I'd find it funny, especially if they paid for it.

 :laugh:
« Last Edit: July 04, 2010, 03:50:57 PM by Grim »

Offline Oiseau

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Re: Nergal gets off!
« Reply #65 on: July 04, 2010, 07:54:18 PM »
Why should christian values be placed above the values of others in the law system? I want to take christians to court for telling me I'm going to hell for not worshipping their god. I find it offensive. This will not happen. So fuck christianity.

...for brevity's sake, I'll say I "believe" in science... because I'm not an immature fuckwit, I couldn't care less if someone tore up a chemistry book in plain sight, ignited the shreds, and pissed on the embers... if anything, I'd find it funny, especially if they paid for it.

 :laugh:

 The laws of particular places will always be strongly influenced by the original religious system of an area, because if the majority of the inhabitants of the area will understand the laws and abide by them, as they correspond to their belief system. Using people's fears of religious wrath would have been the most effective way to keep the people in line.

In regards to what you were saying about the laws of nature, I don't agree that they are 'ghosts' things such as gravity, air and magnetic forces all exist. Even though we can't necessarily feel them with our own senses, we can observe their effects or observe their effects on other things. It is human nature to try to understand new information or phenomena, and to create a basis for this, items or phenomena have to be identified by identifying common characteristics and categorising them accordingly. New discoveries and theories are always being recognised and identified, as the universe is in a constant state of change. Sometimes it takes a tiny development in technology or even a brilliant mind to see it. These theories and ideas are always subject to change and alteration, with the gathering of information, but their existence and effects cannot be denied, regardless of whether they have been exhaustively defined and explained.
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Offline DRONED

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Re: Nergal gets off!
« Reply #66 on: July 05, 2010, 04:30:25 AM »
Why should christian values be placed above the values of others in the law system? I want to take christians to court for telling me I'm going to hell for not worshipping their god. I find it offensive. This will not happen. So fuck christianity.

i had a run in with a work mate at midland brick years ago, (he being a christian and me not) He reported me for having a pentagram symbol on my keyring, he said it was very offencive to him and that i be fired for it. The dickhead bosses at the time said he had a point as far as worker satisfaction and happines within his job. So my arguement was that he had a cross on his necklace and it was offencive to me and if i was to be fired then he would have to be too. Neither of us were fired over it all. so i still find it amusing that they (christians) can get all upset about the smallest or non significant things and yet are just as hypocritical in their own actions?
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Offline ironguardian

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Re: Nergal gets off!
« Reply #67 on: July 05, 2010, 05:13:17 AM »
yet are just as hypocritical in their own actions?

I feel like such a hypocrite every time I wear (one of) my Mhorlg shirts.  :P

Each person is different, everyone will find something to be offended about, it's not just confined to religion, or politics.

Offline DRONED

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Re: Nergal gets off!
« Reply #68 on: July 05, 2010, 08:22:36 AM »
yet are just as hypocritical in their own actions?

I feel like such a hypocrite every time I wear (one of) my Mhorlg shirts.  :P

Each person is different, everyone will find something to be offended about, it's not just confined to religion, or politics.

religion and politics are the main offenders tho
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Offline goat

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Re: Nergal gets off!
« Reply #69 on: July 05, 2010, 04:47:07 PM »
thing is in this case, he couldnt just live with the whole pentagram thing, he couldnt hold his discrimitive tounge and just work with his fellow man, he had to go, fucking completely over the top i might add, and go to that extreme as to try get him fired. what a wanker.

i wouldve fired him for shit stirring a happy work place.

Ihad a dude yeas ago at my work place, a born again, which a hundred times worse, telling me why i shouldnt be doing this or that, and arguing about it with me, i couldnt fucking believe it. There's gotta be something wrong with nobs like that.
In the end though he rubbed me up the wrong way about it and he started getting all shitty and started showing his true colours.

Fucking faker he was.

Offline DRONED

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Re: Nergal gets off!
« Reply #70 on: July 05, 2010, 05:25:47 PM »
i did start wearing my "jesus is a cunt" t shirt under my hiviz gear after awile and that got him realy worked up, but i was doin it knowing i could get into more trouble and wasnt a constructive move but i didnt care.
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Offline Grim

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Re: Nergal gets off!
« Reply #71 on: July 06, 2010, 03:13:43 AM »
yet are just as hypocritical in their own actions?

I feel like such a hypocrite every time I wear (one of) my Mhorlg shirts.  :P

Each person is different, everyone will find something to be offended about, it's not just confined to religion, or politics.

I can put on whatever shirt I like. It's called freedom from religion.

Offline Ingasm

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Re: Nergal gets off!
« Reply #72 on: July 06, 2010, 03:44:57 AM »
Why do I keep getting arrested when walking around Forrest Chase in the nud? I am an Indian holy man after all, and if you say I'm not you're clearly a fucking bigot.

Clothes ! = Religion.

Offline Mago_Haydz

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Re: Nergal gets off!
« Reply #73 on: July 06, 2010, 03:35:00 PM »
I'm curious as to where everyone gained their negative perspective religion. Just seems like a cool thing to be anti religious. Holy Rollers to cool for the trend though.

Whether you believe it or not, I drew my own conclusions in regards to religion (and they aren't remotely influenced by the whole "being metal" charade, I've essentially held the same views for longer than I've been an active listener of music), and I probably had a bit of a head-start in the sense that my family didn't influence me religiously in any way. The earliest event I can recall that turned me off religion happened in year 5... I don't entirely remember what the class was masqueraded as, but basically it was a Christian "education" class, championed by the school chaplain, that took advantage of us kids' natural interest in Christmas/Easter/etc, to cram religious propaganda in to our minds. I found it extremely boring, confusing, and irrelevant to whatever I gave a crap about at that time, so I told my mother about this class, and she was outraged about the class, and had me withdrawn from it (this was at a public school, mind you).

Scripture they called it. You basically wrote that paragraph for me, so thanks for saving me time. Exact same story as me... only I was grade 4 and my parents wrote a letter so I didnt have to attend scripture because I found it so insanely boring and didnt believe a word of it. Then I got the option to go and play games on this crappy old Amstrad computer, go to the library or play basketball. Of course, given the choices I had, many kids followed suit and by the end of the year I had a whole posse shooting hoops.
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Offline goat

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Re: Nergal gets off!
« Reply #74 on: July 06, 2010, 03:54:20 PM »
Same here, dirty fucking c's.
How the fuck dare they? without consulting anyones families. Did they need to go to such lengths? Or did they just assume everyone wants to be a christian?